Friday, July 29, 2005

"There aren't any real men anymore"

I've heard this complaint from women numerous times. And whether it came from some annoying whiner or a woman I genuinely cared about, my reply is always the same. "You women should have been careful for what you wished for."

Then they get mad when I shift the blame to them. Let me explain.

I grew up in a different time. I grew up in a time when a man's word was respected and when honor meant something. I grew up in a time when if you had something to say to someone, you said it. If you got your you know what kicked, at least other people would have respected you for standing up for what you believed.

It's not like that anymore. Now, whenever a guy shows any signs of masculinity, people are appalled. The extreme case of this is when cops tell you to give a criminal what he wants. Screw that! If a criminal is in my house, he dies. I don't care if he was abused as a child. I don't care if his father never told him he loved him. I don't care if his dog died when he was only three. I don't care if he had accidents during pottie training.

Any cop who goes around saying that needs to not only get his butt kicked, but he ought to lose his job as well. Protect and to serve whom? Oh yeah, maybe keeping criminals on the streets is job security. Who knows?

But going back on topic...It's in schools. Any time a boy shows disinterest (grade school is boring! it was boring in my day), they throw a bottle of ritalin at him. I would have been doped up had I grown up twenty years later. And I consider myself highly successful for someone my age. Had I been on ritalin, I'd be spending the prime years of my life staring into space bagging groceries in Wal-Mart.

I like to use TV as a barometer. Remember the old days? Sure TV was bad, but it had people you could respect. Nowadays we have shows like Friends where the "sensitive" guy, who really plays the role of a pansy who would (and should) have been stuck in a garbage can and rolled down the hill in my day, is the guy women like. And the other two guys are pretty and stupid.

Take another TV show, The Man Show. It started off as a show for guys, a show with guy things like beer, sports, and hot chicks. It ended up making fun of everything guys like.

Look at the big issues nowadays. We have gun control, which is totally anti-male. We have politicians trying to ban video games, another past time of young males. By the way, guess what? Video games don't cause reckless violence. Parental neglect does, so if you want to ban something, ban bad parenting.

Remember the Promise Keepers? They were simply Christian males who promised to be better fathers, better sons, better boyfriends, better brothers, better people, better men. And all the media did was make fun of them. Well, so much for trying to be a better man. Might as well just give up.

I was an atheist at the time of the Promise Keepers (and no, I will not disclose my current religious beliefs. We're very private), and was I offended? Not one bit. I thought it was a great idea. Here were a bunch of Christian males making the same promises as the good folks in the Million Man March, and people mocked them.

I know this post is offensive and I was initially worried about posting it because it would lose some loyal readers, all of whom I really like as people. But I have to come clean. I have to tell the truth how I feel, because it's my duty. I don't want a return to the good old days. There are things I like better about today than back then. I want a move forward, but with men to be allowed to be men again.

I want Mardi Gras and Las Vegas. And I don't want a "family-friendly" Las Vegas. I want a haven for heterosexual (both men and women) hard-core partying. The gays have Gay Pride in San Francisco, as they should, more power to them. How come there has been so much cracking down on wild straight parties? The workers of America average over forty seven hours a week of work. We all need to let off some steam in a way that doesn't land us in jail.

I want the shooting galleries back in my amusement parks. I want to be able to smile at a lovely lady without getting fined for sexual harassment. Hell, I don't even open doors for women anymore because I'm tired of dealing with the bad looks.

And yes, I know the difference between innocence and sexual harassment. I've discussed this with my female friends many times, and the line is easy to understand. When in doubt, ask. Women are more than willing to tell how they feel.

Worse yet, American "men" have given up their freedom for security. Now look. Guys with money no longer drive fast and fun sports cars. Instead they buy slow and "safe" SUVs. (Of course, SUVs aren't safe, they're actually much, much more dangerous than full-size sedans, but who needs logic and statistics when you "feel" safer?) American "men" have bought the whole gun control lie, which has been proven over and over again not to reduce crime, yet men no longer think rationally. They've lost the ability to.

I never thought I'd see the day when I was hated by some people for being a hunter. Now, these same morons eat meat, and just don't get it. Hunting is a male primal instinct. It is a safe way of being a male. Sure there are bad hunters out there who get drunk, litter everywhere, shoot at everything, and have no respect for their guns or the animals they're shooting at. But that's all you'll hear from the media. You'll never hear that the vast majority of hunters are good honest people. You'll also never hear that the most successful environmental organizations in terms of acreage saved from development almost every single year are hunting groups.

For the record, male agressiveness is a good thing. It just needs to be channeled properly. Trying to repress it will make it come out perverted. That's why we have binge drinking. That's why we have campus rape. That's why we have completely misogynistic porn (instead of healthy, loving porn, like what existed in the 70s). It's because any time a boy showed signs of maleness, he was severely punished and now it's coming out perverted. And no, I am not excusing it, by any means. I'm just telling you why it's happening.

And women wonder why real men don't exist anymore. It's because men have had their maleness trained right out of them. So when any maleness slips out, it comes out sick and perverted.

Lastly, if things are corrected, if men are allowed to be men again, women will love it. For one thing, you'll see much less misogyny, much less perversion, and you'd be respected as women as men should be respected as men.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

So much was said, I don't think I can fully comment on it here. I agree with a lot of what you're saying--I think in general, men AND women, have been trained to go against a lot of our instinctual responses in favor of "sensitivity." I think sometimes that's good. Sometimes not. I do not agree that we will see less misogyny, however, if we let men be "masculine" again. I don't know if since the 1960s misogynistic tendencies have declined, but I do know that before then, it was all right for a man to exercise his masculinity in inappropriate ways against women. There is an awareness, and hopefully prevention, now of that type of abuse. I don't think that should stop.

I also think that you're taking for granted that every man has the same definition of what it means to be a man. You say that if someone threatens you, you should stand up an assert yourself. Okay, sounds great. Well, not too long ago, white men perceived any black person as being a threat and they exercised their power and masculinity by lynching. I'm not saying you're advocating that, but just that your definition of a "real man" is not universal, and I think we should encourage men to act in a way that suits them--if they want to be passive, let them be passive! While it may seem counter-instinctive, it also may be a sign of evolution.

Lastly, I personally have never heard a woman say that there aren't any real men anymore.

7/29/2005 4:50 AM  
Blogger Dawner said...

The weirdness to all this is that I agree with you in so many areas. I think that society is constantly evolving. Whether people want it to or not. I believe that everything changes over time. Love even has new meaning these days. It can't be helped and it surely can't be stopped. Now all that can be done to ease the beasts of burden is deal with it no matter how that needs to be done. It is funny to think about. Look at how many people these days are off the doctors offices to find coping in a pill. It is rather distrubing that our surroundings are changing yet the ones affected by it are the ones that are most refusing to change themselves. I also believe that alot of what you are writing about should also show that the influences of the world are changing and the traditional way of being raise is long gone. I think there are real men left in the world I just think that the stereotypes given and taken from society have hindered us all.

7/29/2005 5:53 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

This would require a whole post to reply to (maybe I might). One of my areas of study is gender studies so this is right up my alley.

First, you can't look at masculinity without also addressing femininity - as they define each other.

There's no one way to look at masculinity/femininity because they are, after all, socially constructed concepts. The current society defines what is and what is not "appropriate" for men & women.

I agree with you on some points (like agression serves a purpose but should be channeled appropriately). But why is only it men's place to do this? It used to be men were the protector's of the family, financially and physically. Men were in charge (many laws were on the books defining the family as the man's property). That has changed, so the concept of men as the sole protector of the family has changed as well.

I reject traditional definitions of masculinity and the "real man" for one reason - because accepting them also means, in turn, I must accept traditional definitions of femininity and "real woman"- definitions that simply don't describe me. You can't have one without the other, because in a world where we have "real" men and women, these definitions are mutually exclusive. You define yourself, in part, by saying what you are not. What is a man? A man is not a woman.

That is why gender-benders are ostracized SO profoundly in our society (and others). The main reason someone who is homophobic beats on a gay man is because that man, not a "real man" but still biologically a man, challenges the homophobe's definition of himself as a man.

The reality is, however, a much more complex continuum. Masculinity and femininity are only as distinct of categories as society allows them to be.

7/29/2005 6:14 AM  
Blogger Slade said...

Wow, ZS...pretty heavy stuff. I completely agree with Kitkat and Laura on this one, but I do respect what you are saying as well. I think that the most important thing is what Kitkat said: that you can't really define masculinity for all men. This may be how YOU feel or how you define your own masculinity, but it is important not to put that same definition on all men...we are all so different, men and women, why do we constantly have to define our genders??? AND, do you really get bad looks from women when you open the door for them??? I mean, I'm a feminist, but I've never scowled when a door is opened for me!

BTW, I just commented on your Harry Potter post...

7/29/2005 7:30 AM  
Blogger Sagepaper said...

Regarding sexual harassment, I am angry with other women for raising the red flag over anything they find indelicate or insensitive. The best cure for that is a return to the good old days when such things were not for mixed company (we ladies can be raunchy ourselves).

The problem is, all this extreme definition of sexual harassment waters-down the very ugly original issue. Professional and clerical women were essentially forced into prostitution by their SUPERIORS. If they wanted to retain their jobs and move ahead, they were forced to perform sexual acts to the satisfaction of their bosses.

I have a friend who was accused of sexual harrassment for using a profane word. His accuser? A woman three ranks higher than him in the business. I'm sorry, but it is not possible for a SUBORDINATE to sexually harass his superiors. At least, not if we are talking about the very real and ugly sexual harassment we tried to stop.

7/29/2005 8:00 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

Oh, I totally agree with Sagepaper regarding harassment. This goes back to political correctness and our push to make sure nothing we say ever offends anyone. The problem is that no harassment law distinctly and concretely defines harassment - so it opens to door for anyone who feels "offended" to claim harassment.

I know a woman who was so afraid to attend a meeting with a certain co-worker alone and always brought someone else with her, because all he did was gape and stare at her breasts. THAT is harassment. If someone does/says something that offends me - I can politely ask them to go elsewhere and do whatever they're doing. If they refuse to stop - then that can be harassment.

ZS/Slade: The whole opening doors thing I find funny. I have known women who get offended. They mistake common courtesy for an intention to show women are weak I guess. I open doors for men as often as they open them for me - who gives a rat's ass? What bugs me, guys in elevators, who try to insist I exit first - even when I'm in the far corner and can't get out unless they move their big dumb asses out of my way. :-D

7/29/2005 8:09 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

All - Thanks for your honesty.

Kitkat - That's why I'm saying in some ways we've progressed, especially when it comes to things like racism. I wouldn't want to go back, but I'd rather see going forward in a better direction for men. I honestly think the big losers when men aren't allowed to be men are women, not just men.

I sincerely hope that political correctness hasn't hit Florida yet, as it has here. A former co-worker and good friend of mine from the East Coast complained after living here in California that she'd "never have a serious relationship with someone from California. They're all pseudo-men." You really notice the problem when you come from somewhere else, then come to a place like Seattle or California where political correctness and heterosexual male bashing are so in style. Seattle's even worse than here.

Dawner - yes! Men when they have to deal with anything go to pills nowadays. We don't let off steam like we did in the old days. Just ten-fifteen years ago even in California, we'd be playing tackle football on the weekends. Nowadays, the fields are all empty and the "men" are at home drugged up on pills and watching the idiot box instead of hunting, fishing, playing sports, fixing their cars (I hardly know any guy nowadays who can even change his oil), i.e., doing man things.

Laura - Ever read Susan Faludi? She recently wrote a book called Stiffed and I heard it was pretty good. Weird the author of Backlash goes and writes that book. I heard there are better books on the subject, but I just find it interesting one of the top feminist authors writes something like what I'm saying.

Agreed that there should be some overlap in gender roles. I've known women who shoot just as well as I do (and I find that quite sexy). I myself love shopping for food. I think it's fun, and I don't find it at all demasculinizing, even though that's traditionally a "woman's role." But men are supposed to be the primary bread winners and primary protectors. That's what we're bred for. I'm not at all against women having their careers too, but when you see a guy with too much time on his hands being unemployed, you see a severe sadness.

As for homophobia, you understand that perfectly. I've seen it first hand, knowing homophobes and seeing them as men who have had their masculinity challenged, but with no safe outlet for response. So they go extreme (gay bashing) to prove their masculinity.

You have a strong understanding of sociology, probably much better than mine. I'd love to hear you comment more on this. If you'd like to spend some time and even post a "counter" on your blog, let me know and I'd love to read it.

Oh, by the way, I never believe in forcing a role on anyone. I'm just saying biologically, we are cut out for these roles. To accept or deny them is fine, but going against nature has its consequences. And beyond that, there is the individual. For every rule, there is an exception, and some good folks plain out don't fit in those biological roles. One of these days I'll have to do a tomboy post (which is surprisingly positive. I've always enjoyed hanging with tomboys).

7/29/2005 8:16 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Slade - yes, actually I have had dirty looks for doing "masculine" things like opening doors for women. And my wife has had her share of complaints when she was a stay at home mother, like that's a bad thing. I was "holding her back." No, she was trying to spend some quality time with Junior, considering I was working 55 hours a week. But then again, this was from Seattle and Southern California where heterosexual male bashing is in vogue.

Sagepepper - Yes. Sexual harassment is going to be like the boy who cried wolf. If does occur, but if it's used for stupid stuff like that, everyone will look the other way when it really happens.

Laura - You can open doors for me and I won't be offended. ;)

As for staring at breasts, I have a story where I was the bad guy. My boss at the time had huge breasts. Problem was, I was deep in thought and staring into space. She walks in to the room and I'm staring right at her breasts, not knowing that I'm staring at her breasts. She gave me a dirty look, then I came to my senses. I think she knew though that I tend to do that - go off into another world at times. We later on became good friends, but she never mentioned it. To this day, I wonder if she knew that it wasn't intentional. So I guess the moral of the story is when staring into space, look up or down, not forward. :\

7/29/2005 8:25 AM  
Blogger The Flaming Liberal said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/29/2005 9:01 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

Ever read Susan Faludi? She recently wrote a book called Stiffed and I heard it was pretty good.

No, I never read that one. I'll have to put that on my list/pile. I read a number of studies/ essays on masculinity and sports/work/ fatherhood etc. a little while ago and they're really quite fascinating. They were in a collection called "Reconstructing Gender: A Multicultural Anthology" by Estelle Disch. Quite good if anyone's interested.

7/29/2005 9:17 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Flaming Liberal - Sorry to have to do this to you, but I had to delete your post and I moved it to the Harry Potter post. It was in the wrong section and the link gave away a real bad spoiler for HP6. I'm sure you just accidently commented on the wrong post. Thanks a bunch for the link though. I'll check it out and comment on it later on tonight.

Laura - Cool, I'll see it I could find it and let you know.

7/29/2005 10:20 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

Yipes, I looked the book up on Amazon and it's $55... seems a LOT excessive. I can always scan the table of contents and send you pdf's of the ones you find interesting, since I had to buy it for a class.

7/29/2005 10:40 AM  
Blogger Shawn said...

Here I am, late to the party... but I brought some dip... I made it myself and I'll put up with some ribbing about it, but I'm willing to kick your ass if you push me too far.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying ZS. Men and women have been watered down quite a bit. I think it's across the board though and not just men. There are too many people that have been brought up to look for a free lunch and an excuse for not succeeding. That's why the legal system is treated like a scratch off lottery ticket. If you offend me I try and sue you.

I sort of agree with kitkat too. I've personally never really bought into the old school notion of John Wayne being a great male role model. His characters were always outwardly tough but always too afraid to show any sign of softness. I sort of like the Jimmy Stewart type of strength. His characters were always 'ah shucks Ma'am' and holding doors, but when it came down to it they always stood up to the Mr. Potters of the world.

Gary Cooper was that kind of hero in 'High Noon.' The problem with the America today is that there are too many yellow townspeople and not enough Gary Cooper's.

I really agree with a lot what Laura says too. I tend to be attracted to strong women, so I appreciate them. I've also found that it's seldom the strong women who have problems with strong men. And in a nod to Mrs. ZS... it's often the stay at home moms that are the strongest women of all... ;)

I guess I define a strong man as a guy who goes to a bar and doesn't start a fight, but who will cross the street to defend a gay man being harassed.

A strong man is likely to open doors for women, not because he thinks they're weak, but because it's a nice thing to do -- like saying 'hi' or smiling.

A strong man will go to work at a job he hates because it means putting food on the table -- but he'll also keep his eye open for a job that he'll like and he'll never take out his dissatisfaction on his family.

A strong man is a guy who when he gets hit in a car accident, gets his car fixed and only takes money for medical bills if he actually needs medical attention and rehabilitation -- he also understands that accidents happen and he doesn't need to get money for his 'pain and suffering'.

A strong man hugs his kids and makes them return the candy they stole from the store. He talks to them about sex and drugs because he knows they will face both eventually.

And lastly, a strong man will drop everything to answer his neighbor's alarm bell just like the Amish at the end of 'Witness.'

Okay... that went all over the place and I don't even know if I said what I wanted too. Maybe your next post can be an easy topic like ice cream...

7/29/2005 11:04 AM  
Blogger Reverend Dr. Will Trump said...

i love the post, and i agree with you for the most part. and i started to read the comments - but i guess i showed disinterest, where's my ritalin ?

7/29/2005 11:08 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

Shawn: Well said. Bravo. So what you're saying is a "real man" is man enough to do the right thing when it needs to be done, without worrying whether or not he'll be perceived as "manly" while doing it?

7/29/2005 11:09 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Shawn - muchas gracias for the definitions of a "strong man." That was exactly what was missing from my post. Those are all good examples of what a strong man is.

As for strong women - love them. Weak women in the past have always tried to bring me down. And I think it was my experiences with weak women where I get the ideas that maleness in itself is being attacked. I'm a lucky man in many ways, and probably the luckiest of all besides being blessed with good health is I married a strong woman.

Those Amish in that flick by the way were awesome. A nice movie example there.

Thom - classic response. ;)

Laura - I can't speak for Shawn but I'm quite content with that definition.

7/29/2005 11:29 AM  
Blogger Shawn said...

Ah shucks... yes, Ma'am, I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

7/29/2005 11:31 AM  
Blogger Levi Nunnink said...

Great post, Shawn.

I always think of the definition of a "real man" as being my dad. He's a hunter, carpenter, gracefully aging athelete, wonderful father & husband and very polite.

I always end up comparing myself to him to make sure I'm measuring up to the standard. It's sad that many people have fathers who wrecked the picture of a real man and they end up try not to be like them.

I'm hoping that I can be the standard for my little boy. I've got a responsibility to show him how a real man conducts himself.

7/29/2005 11:37 AM  
Blogger Just Wandering said...

Wow...quite the rant! but I do have to agree with the first part at least (the part I read, my eyes started to glaze over). Definitely too much ritalin. I have been misled by a few guys, who didn't have the integrity to let me know their feelings. As in me thinking maybe more than just friends and they thinking, oh we can just be best friends, it's cool. Back in the old days, things seemed simpler

7/29/2005 12:23 PM  
Blogger Melanie said...

I agree with your whole post. I like "manly" men. And what some people don't realize is that hunting is a necessity, not just a sport. All of my brother's hunt.

7/29/2005 1:36 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Melanie - yes, it is a necessity. It's very soothing to the soul for at least me to be in nature for a few days, following deer tracks or looking for quail. Even if we don't even see anything, a successful trip is just being there in nature.

Just Wandering - That's because guys are told not to tell their true feelings. They might (heaven forbid) offend someone. With me, I'd rather know the truth.

Levi - you and I are lucky. I have a great Dad, a good influence. I had something to measure up to. It amazes me that he was able to do all he did with us. He valued quality time with us more than anything else in the world, and that I strongly believe molded us into better people. As for you, I'm sure you'll measure up. It's like that saying from the Karate Kid II movie. You have strong roots.

And once again, Shawn, what you posted was absolutely awesome.

7/29/2005 2:02 PM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

You're right on the mark, ZS!
Our basic primal instincts are for women to be nurturing and men to be hunters/providers and defenders. Modern society tends to go against nature and then wonders why everything's so screwed up. There has to be a happy medium.
Shawn-You really nailed my definition of a strong man. Way to go!!

7/29/2005 6:24 PM  
Blogger Bridget Jones said...

As usual we're on the same wavelength, ZS. I don't view this post as negative, it's a head slap for the overly PC--losing sight of what they were trying to do in the first place.

What I think it all boils down to is mutual respect. With that consideration always in mind, extremes usually get avoided. There are plenty of misogynists around, I run into those dinosaurs every day at work,and have a great time poking fun at them, now that I can. BTW I totally agree with sagepaper. From time to time it's rank and file, but the biggest prob in sexual harassment is not in gentlemen opening doors (which I love), it's the BOSSES promoting this nonsense. And it's usually the Mr. Bs of this world, who have nothing going for them but their physical apparatus. No brains, no accomplishment...and who get ahead by trying to make others look bad. Of course those types attack everyone, but it's hardly a fault to have two X chromosomes, nor is it a world class feat to have a Y one.

and bravo shawn, agree with you too.

7/29/2005 7:49 PM  
Blogger Bo Salisbury said...

Great rant, Senõr!

So much to address... like you, I would have been on drugs as a kid, because I just couldn't sit still and, because I was social (a female trait, to listen to the gender experts nowadays). Praise God people were so unsophisticated and backwards then or I would have been lobotomized, literally or chemically!

I think what I resent the most is when folks act like the 50s and 60s were the "Ozzie and Harriet" days and it was like living under the Taliban or something. But, now we're so free!

It's all a pant load! The people who took the platform in the 60s and brought this all about were either sheltered or naive or not very inquisitive or... stupid! Now, the rest of us have to pay for what they think they missed out on, or what they thought was oppressive or patriarchal or whatever.

I grew up in what was a very typical suburb around LA... everyone I ever knew down there lived in a similar place or worse, like the ghetto or the barrio. Here are some anecdotes from my life between 1955 - 1970:

My mom was picking me up at nursery school, because she worked like most of the moms in our neighborhood -- there's one myth gone – mom did not stay home. My sisters were waiting in the car and a guy came up and exposed himself. That was 1959, for cryin' out loud and both of my sisters grew up to live normal, happy lives and never resorted to therapy or drugs. Oh, and we didn’t wear any colored ribbons to show our support for them, either.

There was a single man named Bill in our neighborhood. He was gay and everyone seemed to know that... there were always three or four college guys in cutoff sweatshirts and shorts running around. He had a pool and every parent in the neighborhood let their kids go to his house and swim. That included me and I did that until I was 7 or 8. The fundamentalist, pentecostal family lived right next door to Bill and they were good friends with him. They did not approve of his lifestyle, but simply "lived and let live." Neither they, nor the Catholics or the Baptists or the Okies or the one Zionist Jewish family (yes, we were a diverse community) marched on his house with torches and pitchforks.

There were divorces, fights, a violent death, teen pregnancy and drugs in and around the neighborhood. I can remember my dad telling me when I was five or six, that they found teenagers sniffing glue over in the park and once, while driving by the high school, he pointed to a building and said, “That’s where they found those hoods taking dope.”

My dad was a real man… a truck driver, who didn’t like country music and hated CB radios, because they distracted his fellow truckers. He also did the dishes, the grocery shopping and most of the gardening. He was very sensitive, looked out for the underdog and everyone loved him… no one ever had a bad word to say about my dad. He was also powerfully built, masculine and principled. He simply would not violate the law. My mom worked, eventually was in management and was very feminine. She also sewed many of my sister’s dresses and knitted gifts for Christmas. My mom had been a tomboy and I preferred playing catch with her, because she threw harder than my dad. She played tennis and would beat my dad handily, but he didn’t mind. I was latchkey and learned how to cook, do laundry, mend and iron clothes… that sort of thing.

Here’s my point… when I was growing up, we were all free to do pretty much whatever we wanted, except to be obnoxious or rude. We were to show respect and tolerance to everyone, though we found many things unacceptable. That’s the dictionary definition of tolerance, “To allow something not wholly approved of.” Men were men and women were women, without being told what that means. My parents did not fit “the stereotype” the revisionists have given us and I knew very few couples who did. But, now that “the barriers have been broken down,” I find this world to be much more rigid in many ways and less tolerant that it was back then. Now, we have speech codes and new taboos. But, Zombieslayer, you have deftly demonstrated that there is an accepted bigotry towards “manly men.”

7/29/2005 8:30 PM  
Blogger United We Lay said...

I'll respond on my blog.

7/30/2005 8:09 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

PC - cool. As always, looking forward to reading your posts.

Bo - Thanks for the stories. You're about 15 years younger than my father, who grew up in the 40s and 50. The bad about that time was that the music wasn't as good/diverse, and it was a lot more racist. But we've been brainwashed to believe there was no good. From his stories, I would have gladly changed places. His generation was much more positive, much more alive, much more physically fit.

Your Dad seemed like a guy I would have loved to have met. Being a true real man, he had nothing to prove. It's usually the "real men" that are the nicest, friendliest people. It's people who have to prove something that are irritating.

And thanks also for dispelling all the lies that nothing happened in those days either. Unlike today though, nobody advertized their victim status and wanted everyone in the world to feel sorry for them and want a hand-out. When they made a mistake, they dealt with it, and they moved on.

Bridget - Yes, people who have nothing going for them nowadays thrive by bringing everyone else down. That's the whole thing about forced equality. I'm all for equality if you bring the unfortunate up. But the way these PC folks want to do it is bring the fortunate down. That's why I'll fight PC'ism tooth and nail.

As for respect among the sexes, that comes with parenting. If Mom and Dad are fighting all the time, kids often grow up mistrusting the opposite sex. If Mom and Dad love and respect each other, their kids will look for those good traits in their mates. There are of course exceptions to this, but I think it's safe to say it's a more often than not rule.

Tshsmom - I've always understood that we have both free will and nature. You can go against nature only so much until it comes back to bite you in the you know where. The thing we must understand is both masculine and feminine roles are equally important. If we didn't have the hunter, we'd eat no meat. If we didn't have the gatherer, we'd eat no fiber (and be taking lots of drugs to help us go poo). We need both the provider and the nurturer or we wouldn't be complete. Of course, some folks overlap in their roles. I'm not saying men and women have to be one or the other by any means. What I will say is that it's in our biology to be better at doing one or the other depending on our genders at birth.

7/30/2005 10:44 AM  
Blogger savage said...

The comments people make are so long, I'll try to keep mine short.
It's even worse than all you've said, ZS, my example is that first BBQ of yours that I went to that you told me I didn't need an invitation because it was "assumed" I was invited.
I know all I ever do is talk about this, but it really burned my butt.
That girl who sat across the table from me kept basicly (yeah yeah, I know, basically) shut me down in 'debate' by saying that since I'm male, I'm either a) not intitled to an opinion or b) the one behind all the problems in (her) world [male dominated society, yada yada].
I got that sh!+ from the girl I went to prom with, but I was younger and stupider then. With whashername, I just suggested that if the table wasn't there, I'd have to hit her.

7/31/2005 2:09 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Geez Savage, you really let her get to you. It's been over a month since we've seen her.

Well, now you see why I hated living in Seattle so much. That's all you ever hear there.

7/31/2005 10:22 AM  
Blogger Lew Scannon said...

Women are fickle and insane. The minute that men start acting like real men again, they'll start moaning about how men just aren't sensitive any more. The media feeds us this see-saw by firstly demonizing real men, then when all the women have bought in to that sensitive crap, they start showing real men, country music guys buffed up in wife beaters. I am just my own person, if some women doesn't except me for that, it's not my loss.

7/31/2005 12:04 PM  
Blogger Ben said...

I grew up in a different time. I grew up in a time when a man's word was respected and when honor meant something. I grew up in a time when if you had something to say to someone, you said it. If you got your you know what kicked, at least other people would have respected you for standing up for what you believed.

It's not like that anymore. Now, whenever a guy shows any signs of masculinity, people are appalled. The extreme case of this is when cops tell you to give a criminal what he wants. Screw that! If a criminal is in my house, he dies. I don't care if he was abused as a child. I don't care if his father never told him he loved him. I don't care if his dog died when he was only three. I don't care if he had accidents during pottie training.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Man ZS that is for sure a top 5 post for you, great rant. Oh and by the way, I am a REAL MAN and I get flak for it constantly. Don't worry there are going to be some (not a lot though) in my generation.

7/31/2005 5:48 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Ben - not taking anything away from you, but you're in Minnesota. I'm under the impression that there still are more real men out in other parts of the country. Yes, there are real men in Southern California and Seattle, but they're definitely a minority. Thanks for the compliments. Yeah, this is one of my more personal, heart-filled posts.

Lew - sometimes I feel like the media loves to see us fight each other. The media does everything they can to divide us - by gender, by ethnicity, etc. I don't think there's a conspiracy behind it, more greed. They know that gender and racial wars sell so they blow them way out of proportion. As for being your own person, you'll scare away the weak ones. It will be better for you in the long run.

7/31/2005 9:13 PM  
Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

I think that, in general, when women complain that there aren't "real men" anymore, it's BS. First of all, there isn't just one set template for a real man. For instance, I don't think that you're any more of a real man than someone who chooses not to hunt or own guns. However, I agree with your views about "sissy men" like the main on "Friends". I don't think that "sissy" is the same as "sensitive", though. I think that, when a woman is with a man, she has a laundry list of what she wants. Not everything about that man is on her "list", and it's a bit of a let-down, so she goes on a mission to change him (never a good idea). I think there are real men out there, but I think they are hard to find. Also, I think that when women get it into their heads that "real men" are the same as "manly men", then that's when the trouble starts. Yes, I want a real guy, but to me, that means someone who can communicate with me, knows what he wants, is honest, and is willing to stand up for what he believes in (which doesn't need to include fighting or violence). Give me a man like this any day and I will pick him 10 times out of 10 over a guy who is full of himself, needs to assert his power over others, or is an asshole, in general (which is what I define as a manly-man).

8/01/2005 10:08 AM  
Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/01/2005 10:09 AM  
Blogger Kunaxa said...


Good deal for bringing this one up. I'm a little surprised the ladies in the house let you get away with it (you got powers like that??!? Care to share?)

The other part of the equation is of course the fairer sex. More and more you see women that want a 'sensitive' guy or a guy who is able to express his 'emotions'. Though I understand the "strong" and "sensitive" can co-exist, they really begin to bring out differences in one another.

So what exactly do the ladies want? Someone who will punch a drunk who hits on you or someone who will handle the situation diplomatically and avoid the risk of further endangering you by getting in a fight?

8/01/2005 2:34 PM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

Darn. I was on vacation when this post was hot. I liked the comments this post generated, you must be proud, ZS.
Levi, Bo, Shawn, Laura, KitKat, all excellent additions to what was said in the original post.
I would also like to add that I second the notion that TV really screws up traditional male/female roles and the so-called "reality TV" surge has gone even further to damage the image.
Our young girls can watch Paris Hilton and Nichole Richie prance around acting like complete bimbos and actually think that this is an appropriate way for girls to behave. Or they can watch those marriage reality shows where the men act like fools in order to win the hand of some big-breasted-non-personalty-whimp of a woman.
I did nothing to encourage the maleness or femaleness in either of my children and the two of them couldn't be more rooted in the traditional "boy and girl" stereotypes.
Ryan likes bugs and gross things and pop guns and loud noises while Natalie likes dolls and dresses and likes being complimented on how she's wearing her hair--
I hope that never changes. I hope we can be successful in teaching Ryan to open doors for women, give up his seat for a pregnant woman or old person, smile at people, be kind to animals and children, and enjoy male things like hunting, fishing, smoking cigars, camping, working on cars and whatever else.
I hope Natalie will find joy in raising children, being a mommy, making yummy meals for her family, putting on make up, dressing nice for her husband...
...on top of all these things, I have hopes that they will educate themselves on things that interest them and be good, solid readers, be involved in their communities... many hopes.
Inspiring post Zombie.

8/01/2005 4:28 PM  
Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

Sadie, nice spin on this post - thinking about "real men" in relation to your children. I have a son and I hope he grows up to be a hard worker, to respect women (and people in general), to be physically and emotionally strong, intelligent, and be able to enjoy his life. It's a bit different of a mindset between thinking about a partner/husband versus your children, although I'm not quite sure it should be. :-P

8/01/2005 5:02 PM  
Blogger Ben said...

ZS, totally understandable, and yes there are a shortage of real men up here too.

8/01/2005 6:07 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Cultureshocked - One thing that's not easy about being a man is that women have a laundry list of things they want in a man (to borrow the phrase from Jen). To top that off, every woman has a different laundry list. For guys, we seem to just go after what looks good and pray that there's something more (personality, intelligence, etc) attached. Not the smartest way to go about things, but that's at least how many of us grew up.

Jen - yeah, one doesn't have to own guns/hunt, etc to be a real man. To fight zombies, you better own guns, unless you're like Legolas with a bow.

As for a**holes, I can assure you there will be none in the anti-zombie compound. I'm not too crazy about people who think the world revolves around them, and I'm looking forward to the day where they'd be wishing they treated people better in the past.

Sadie - Welcome back. Missed ya. Yes, I too really like this crowd of people. I'm so glad everyone added their two cents on this post. Your son by the way sounds a lot like mine. I truly believe that the less tv kids watch, the better. TV does a horrible job influencing kids in all the wrong ways. Besides, they should be out interacting with other kids anyways. They learn life better that way. All those things you mentioned I'm trying to get Junior interested in.

8/01/2005 6:22 PM  
Blogger Leslie said...

Whatever a "real" man is, I don't know. All I know is that men should not be afraid to express their sensitive side. My husband is falling a bit short here. Sometimes I see the sugar and spice though.

8/01/2005 7:21 PM  
Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

ZS - I'm relieved about your "no asshole" policy in your compound. :-P

8/01/2005 7:42 PM  
Blogger savage said...

ZS: as a 'liberal' or whatever ... depending on how many seals I want to save or whatever ...
I have to say I've noticed ever since coming to this state, that some areas (WEST COAST) is sometimes TOO LIBERAL for their own good.
The political correctness is only one of the problems. But you can be extreme in either direction -- and ...
Always quoting John Barnes, I guess:
"People who value policy over people are people who hate people." It is a bad paraphrase, but it comes from a book called "A Million Open Doors" ...

8/02/2005 1:58 AM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

Thanks Jen. :)
It's so true isn't it? It's up to us, as parents, to start shaping our boys into the men we would be proud of.
I like that my husband is a hands-on kind of father. I want Ryan, when he starts a family, to be a hands on father too. I see men come home from work and maybe greet their wife and say nothing to the children.
I know some Fathers that would rather take a nap or talk to other people or watcg TV than get on the floor with their little ones. That's sad.
I'm hoping that our new baby (less than three weeks away!) will encourage Ryan to look out for those more helpless than himself and nurture that protective instinct in him.
I think it will be awesome that he'll know how to change a diaper but still be able to embrace his masculinity. It's all about balance.

I missed everyone too!
Yes, the less TV the better. It's so true. When my kids spend less time watching TV and more time interacting, sure--it's harder, they fight more but I'd rather have them fighting and trying to work stuff out, than watching TV's weird, skewed versions of males and females.
Commercials are the worst. The ones aimed at girls especially. I saw one where there were these 10 year olds acting like 16 year olds at the mall, buying clothes and trying to be hip with their cell phones and purses. Sick.

8/02/2005 7:14 AM  
Blogger The Zombie Lama said...

Let me just say, "Amen, brother. Amen".

Everybody is so caught up in being "PC" that they're practically living in fear of offending someone. And "we" as society have let it come to this.

Like you, I have stopped doing the "nice" things that were instilled in me while growing up. Hold the door open for a lady, pay for the date, etc. It isn't worth the hassle, the dirty look, the argument.

Ironically, many women will complain that there aren't any "nice guys" left.

Nope. Scared 'em off.

And you think it's bad we want to eat everybody...

Tell ya what... Leave all the people that are crippling this society with their overzealous pursuit of "what is RIGHT" outside of your compound, and I'll make sure we don't try to get in.

That should leave us plenty to snack on...

8/02/2005 7:22 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Zombie - You all will get plenty fat then. ;)

Sadie - I find it rather ironic that siblings who usually fought the most end up being the closest as adults. Not always, but it seems more often than not. So them fighting is probably much better than watching TV.

Savage - Quote of the day there:
"People who value policy over people are people who hate people."

I like that a lot. It's very true. Take Stalinism and of course your average Condo Nazi for examples.

Jen - Yeah. As I am sick of them in everyday life, I'm looking forward to the zombie plague where we can choose who's allowed in. Don't you wish you could choose who and who not you deal with on an everyday basis?

Leslie - Have faith. You're a wonderful person. It will work out for you.

8/02/2005 11:34 AM  
Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

Oh ZS, I wish that a lot - that I could choose who I interact with and not interact with. I keep a running inner monologue of things that I'd love to say to rude people, but on the outside, I usually have to smile and nod my head and say "that's the best they can do". It takes so much energy...

8/02/2005 12:21 PM  
Blogger Amz said...

I agree with women liking manly men. I love a guy that looks good when he's sweaty and dirty. I think a man that can properly operate powertools bumps up 2points on a 1-10 scale.

Now I want to point out one thing in your post -- you think that people that are abused/raised wrong should grow up and become responsible adults that don't rape, rob, pillage, murder. I agree...regardless of upbringing at some point a person has to accept resonsibility for Who and What they are. They need to decide to be the best person they can be. Now, isn't that true that regardless of upbringing a Man should be a Man? For me, it is no different. The best person a man can be is a man...flawed though they are ;)

8/04/2005 2:28 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Amz - You bring up a good point. Problem is many boys have bad or non-existing male parental figure and we all know that TV's not a decent role model, so they have no one to learn it from. But yes, we have free will so the older one gets, the less excuses I'll accept from them.

Jen - That brings up another issue, how to deal with jerks. It's never easy, and especially not easy at work where if you just clock the guy, you get fired. Sometimes if you report him to HR, it becomes your word against his so once again you're screwed. I have a lot of sympathy for people who have had to deal with jerks at work. It's never an easy situation.

Then even on the street, you might clobber some guy and find out later he's your neighbor's kid. So yes, sometimes it's best to swallow your anger, as long as you find a healthy outlet for it later. If you don't, that anger will go to your liver, almost literally.

8/04/2005 3:46 PM  

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