Monday, January 30, 2006

Bring back spanking

You take your spouse to a fine restaurant, where you eat the most expensive meal you'll eat this year. The kids are at home with your brother and after a rough week at work, you finally can relax with that special someone. You're having a romantic time, until it happens.

The kid at the next table throws a tantrum. Maybe he doesn't like the food. Maybe he doesn't like being away from the t.v. Maybe he doesn't like how the tablecloth clashes with the drapes. Whatever the case, you hope the parents have some decency and either take the kid outside or give him a spanking.

They don't. Instead, they try to reason with him and he just gets louder and louder, resorting to throwing food all over the place, all over the table, all over his parents, and some hits one of the other diners.

See, this is what happens when the anti-spanking Nazis get their way. Kids rule now and parents are helpless. It happens in restaurants, movie theatres, airplanes, everywhere. It even happened to me in a sports bar.

Last year, my investment partner and I were at a sports bar in Southern California. The Packers were losing and some brat kept running through the bar part of the restaurant and bumping into the back of my chair. Of course, I'm not going to get mad at a kid, so I faced the kid's owner and yelled that they better watch their !@#$%^& kids.

Luckily for the guy, he grabbed his brats without making any eye contact and moved out of the bar to the restaurant, where he should have been in the first place. People go to bars to get away from other peoples' kids. That's the real reason a lot of us drink.

The anti-spanking Nazis have created an atmosphere where kids can yell "child abuse!" for anything. It may not have reached your area yet, but it's reached Kalifornia.

These kids grow up to be complete spoiled brats. They do it everywhere. I've heard people complain about tantrums in the supermarket, but I don't mind it there because I'm not paying to go shopping. I am paying for theatre tickets and for sushi, so I get real upset when it happens there and the parents are too inconsiderate to either take their children outside or spank them.

When I grew up, kids were considerably better behaved. It's because they were spanked. And no, spanking is not child abuse. Child abuse is punching or neglect, not a quick spank to the butt when a kid's throwing his food at another diner or screaming at the top of his lungs in a museum.

So I say bring back spanking. It would make the world a more pleasant place.

NOTE: One of the big arguments against spanking is it destroys a person's ambition. I say that's hog wash. Every financially successful person I know was spanked as a child.

I know a lot of slackers, including some with wickedly high I.Q.s who had hippie parents who never spanked them. I know that's not scientific, but that's my personal experience. And all of us came from that same filthy refinery town. I think the main difference though was not the spanking or not spanking, but the parents who pushed their kids to become successful became successful. I'm just saying spanking or not spanking had no role in our eventual success.


Blogger Notta Wallflower said...

Hmm, I tend towards removing the child from the situation versus spanking. However, I've spanked K a few times in his life and I do not regret it. I would go a step further and say that parents should find a sitter if they want to go to a nice restaurant. If you can't find a sitter, go to a family friendly place. At least those places are loud anyway and I don't go there expecting not to hear or see children. Just my two cents.

Incidentally, I was spanked as a child - only a few times. It wasn't nearly as traumatic as other things that have happened to me through the years.

1/30/2006 6:51 PM  
Blogger Capybaras United said...

Try spanking your significant other at the restaurant. You'll liven up the evening.

1/30/2006 7:07 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Notta - If spanking is done right, it only needs to be done a few times in a child's life and that's it. I can count the number of times I've spanked Junior on one hand. The last time was when he was four.

A child doesn't reason yet at toddler levels. The avoidance of pain is one reason to behave.

As children get older, you can reason with them more and more. Now at eleven, there's very little I don't discuss with Junior. Like he asked what sodomy as the other day. I told him that it's different in each state, and that 29 states have anti-sodomy laws. Then I told him what acts were considered sodomy. He already knew what those acts were, so I was able to explain them by name.

He's come a long way from a little toddler getting spanked for running in front of a car.

Capybaras - Heh. Knowing this state, especially San Francisco, that could lead to some very strange things. ;)

1/30/2006 7:33 PM  
Blogger Mokuyobi said...

Weirdly enough, I agree.

Well, I mean, I used to piss my pants in kindergarten, and my dad tried for a while to buy me a bag of candy every day. If I didn't wet my pants by the end of the day, I got the candy. If I did, i got a spanking. As far as I remember I mostly got spankings and eventually he gave up. But then kids at school started calling me 'pisspot' and I stopped anyway. heh.

But regardless, they say that you shouldn't hit a child because you teach that child to hit. I say, so what? Everyone needs to learn how to hit sometime. I never learned how to hit and I could've won some fights in high school if i had instead of running away. It's a violent world out there, you fucking hippies. What's wrong with a kid learning to hit? Just teach him not to hit other kids or you. It doesn't mean he's going to grow up to be a bully or whatever. I've found that the lessons you learn in adolescence tend to shape who you are as an adult more than the basic instincts you learn as a child, unless something REALLY traumatizing happened to you. I mean, I used to want to cry to my mom when you know, people were mean to me. But then I grew up and learned that you should either just be mean back to them, or slash their tires later.

1/30/2006 10:11 PM  
Blogger Mr. Althouse said...

Kids don't belong in bars. Unruly kids should be removed. There is nothing wrong with a corrective spanking as long as it is not delivered in anger. I don't begrudge parents with unruly kids in grocery stores - to a point - because it is a necessary activity that must be done by all parents whether or not they can get a sitter. Some can't. However, going out to dinner is an optional activity, a privilege for both parent and child. If the child does not earn it (by behaving) then s/he should stay home. If the parent can't find or afford a sitter, then they can't exercise that option.

Life is not only not fair, it's not supposed to be!


1/30/2006 11:33 PM  
Blogger Laura said...

The problem is that for some people, spanking goes too far. I used to get the "wooden spoon" cracked on my ass if I did something really bad. There are people I know, though, whose parents would whip them with belts, or give them black eyes. Not neccessarily b/c it was their intention to hurt the kid, but because they took it too far, got too mad, or just plain couldn't stop. For some parents, spanking can be the doorway to child abuse because they can't control themselves. If it's done correctly, for the right reasons, and within reason, I have no problem with spanking.

I do agree, though, that I am getting sick and tired of dealing with crying brats everywhere I go. Nice restaurants, R-rated movies, where ever. And I don't like kids to begin with.

The worst, in my opinion, are the parents that scream at their kids in public and tell them to "shut up" or "sit your ass down"... WAY to teach respect for others...

1/31/2006 5:09 AM  
Blogger lime said...

all three of my kids received spankings as they grew up. i agree with other commneters who say it shoudl not be delivered in anger and that it shoudl be done judiciously. we saved it for outright defiance. not for wet pants or childish irresponsibility but just when it was out and out refusal to comply.

i also agree wholeheartedly that kids don't belong in certain places. we actually took out oldest out to nice restaurnats on occasion but she was an unusually calm toddler. the other two we could not do that with and so we didn't.

even the grocery store scenario which is unavoidable, there isn't much reason for excessive problems. my kids all knew, you have a tantrum in the store there will be trouble when we get back to the car and on a few occasions i left the full cart in the store to take the kid to the car and administer the board of education to the seat of knowledge. when they were old enough to walk around the rule was you keep on hand on the cart at all times. i wasn't going to put up with them running up and down the aisles. if they broke the rule, i tied their hands to the cart with velcro. if they fought that, they got their bottoms warmed.

1/31/2006 7:13 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Mokuyobi - It's a violent world out there, you fucking hippies. What's wrong with a kid learning to hit?

Totally agree. People who go around kissing *ss sometimes go far in the corporate world, but at what price?

Now violence is something that can be channeled into another medium, like ambition for instance, or musical talent, or something else. Violence is a motivator, just like the pursuit of sex is.

Mike - Well said. I just wish parents were more considerate of other people. If they don't believe in spanking, fine. But at least take the kids outside.

Laura - Anything can be taken too far, but it doesn't mean it should be censored or banned. That's always been an argument against spanking.

One of my uncles knocked out his kid's teeth with a closed fist. Huge difference between that and the spankings we used to get. My brothers ended up moderately successful. My cousin ended up in jail.

My roommate in college who never got spanked is a pushover in life. I think we turned out best of those examples.

Lime - i left the full cart in the store to take the kid to the car and administer the board of education to the seat of knowledge.

Lol at the wordage there. That's too funny.

By the time Junior was four, he knew what "or else" meant. The threat of a spanking was enough. He was five when the last time he needed a spanking. I think I was around five or six the last time I got one.

1/31/2006 8:24 AM  
Blogger exMI said...

I was spanked. Wirh a variety of objects over the years ranging from hands, to belts, to hairbrushes to an antique schoolmasters cane. (it wasn't designed to be used while walking) Of them all I can say I feel like I didn't deserve one of them. Should I ever have children, (an increasingly unlikely prospect) I expect the little buggers will get spanked.

But just remember this,
All the world is a stage and crying children should be removed from the theater.

1/31/2006 8:56 AM  
Blogger Bhakti said...

I don't believe in spanking.
But, that's just me.

As a school teacher, I've learned other means of getting kids to do as they are told.

1/31/2006 9:27 AM  
Blogger SME said...

You've hit on a good solution (no pun), but what about the adults who throw temper tantrums in restaurants?

1/31/2006 12:23 PM  
Blogger Okie said...

Or as my parents said,

"Spare the rod, spoil the child"

1/31/2006 1:52 PM  
Blogger Kurt said...

I thought you might enjoy the commentary that surrounded the owner of a Chicago area coffee shop that mandated proper behavior by kids or else be asked to leave. This was a big issue in November as people tried to change it into pro-kids or against kids.

My oldest never needed that sort of reprimand. My youngest had mastered the public outcry in order to raise the odds of success.

1/31/2006 2:21 PM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

We've had the same experience with spanking. It's only been 5 or 6 times per kid and ended by the time they were 5. You can't always reason with a toddler.
As our kids got older, we learned what made them tick and created consequences for their actions.

As parents we want people to like our kids, not be repulsed by bratty behavior. Public places are NEVER the place for a tantrum. Remove your child and deal with the bad behavior in private!

A lot of this outrageous behavior occurs because parents don't want to be the bad guy for the 2 hrs/day that they see their kids. They leave discipline up to their daycare people.

1/31/2006 3:21 PM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/31/2006 3:21 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Exmi - All the world is a stage and crying children should be removed from the theater.

Well said. And with all that spanking, you seemed to turn out quite intelligent. So there. ;)

Bhakti - As a school teacher, I've learned other means of getting kids to do as they are told.

Whatever works. If you could get them to not make a scene without a spanking, more power to you. :)

I know one thing. Unless someone is locking their kids in the shed for a week for forgetting to do the dishes, or something along those lines, I'm not going to interfere with their parenting styles. Who am I to tell someone how to raise their kids?

SME - but what about the adults who throw temper tantrums in restaurants?

Throw something at them? That's what we did when Dodger fans showed up to Giants games.

Okie - Did it work? If so, then it works. Like I said to Bhakti, who am I to tell someone how to raise their kids? As long as they're not trying to steal my VCR to buy more meth, I don't care.

Kurt - Your link goes back to this comment. Would love to see that, especially since I'd probably agree with the business owner.

Tshsmom - Yeah. Then daycare people get yelled at for disciplining their brats. What a lousy job. I'm so glad my wife is out of that profession.

1/31/2006 6:20 PM  
Blogger Mel said...

Great post. I agree with several people, especially Mike. I spank my kids if they really deserve it. And I will NOT tolerate ugly behavior in public. I have walked out of restaurants, movie theaters AND grocery stores when they have started to pitch temper tantrums. Because even though you may not have a choice in grocery shopping, that child needs to learn to behave themself in public and to also learn that pitching a temper tantrum does not get you your way. Like I said, I very rarely have to spank, mainly because I get creative in my punishments and I've found that I have very well behaved children and I like that.

I also don't think spanking or not spanking has anything to do with success or lack there of, later in life. It's the values that we instill in our children that lead them to success.

1/31/2006 6:55 PM  
Blogger Bar Bar A said...

I agree with you 100%. My parents spanked me to teach me a lesson (only a few times in my life because that's all it took!) and I was well behaved. I watch my neice struggling to discipline her son with "reason" but you can't reason with a 3 yr. old who is throwing a fit and being a brat! Finally she gave him a spanking and he's been much better...he knows Mommy means business. It is not child abuse it's a form of love. Child abuse is in a completely different category.

Hey - cool blog, I'll be back :)

1/31/2006 7:04 PM  
Anonymous Michele said...

Spanking is creating a little scenerio of what life is like if you're a jerk: You show up late often enough, you get fired, You speed, the cop gives you a ticket, You're obnoxious, you have no friends. These are painful consequences of bad behavior. We need to create a painful moment so our child understands that eventually he'll pay if he keeps doing wrong. To not spank your child is to deceive him about this most basic truth and creates a bratty kid, and then an adult who always thinks he can get away with stuff.
Grrr... I used to waitress, and I hated when people let thier kids run through the restaurant, or worse yet, let them order! "Let them order," they'd shush their husbands, as he tried to give the family's order, and then she'd turn to the bratty child, "Tell her what you want!" and usually they'd say, "Whadya have?"

1/31/2006 9:42 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Mel - Yeah, that's the beauty of spanking. If done right, it doesn't have to be done very much, and it can be phased out quickly. At three years of age, avoidance of pain is what they understand. As kids get older, they get smarter and can be reasoned with. When they're a toddler, they can't be reasoned with. They need to understand that you're the authority.

I've always wanted to slap someone who tries to reason with their three-year-old while their kid is throwing stuff and hitting other customers. it's not only not working, but it's affecting innocent bystanders. And it's also not easy on our ears either.

Bar - only a few times in my life because that's all it took!

Exactly my point. I visited your blog by the way and interesting discussion going on there about blog etiquitte and blog commenting. I've always wanted to do those two posts, but I guess you beat me to it. ;)

Michele - These are painful consequences of bad behavior. We need to create a painful moment so our child understands that eventually he'll pay if he keeps doing wrong.

Exactly. The real world isn't all huggies and kissies. A spanking is a cold, hard fact. You run in front of a bus, you get spanked. You throw your potato and hit some guy trying to enjoy his soup, you get spanked. Kids learn fast.

As for the ordering, my condolenses. I've been fortunate, for every restaurant I've worked for was adult-oriented (as in alcohol, not p*rn). The tips are better that way, and let's face it, I wasn't waiting tables because I love delivering food to people.

2/01/2006 12:41 AM  
Blogger Scott said...

Spanking is the last resort of the unimaginative parent, and one that cannot control his or her anger. You are a reasonable person, and we've went a few rounds on this issue. Most people the defend spanking, in my opinion, are those that did so with their own children and have trouble admitting it may have been wrong to do so. Spanking does hurt a child psychologically, even though they grow up to be responsible, well-adjusted adults.

That doesn't mean there is no discipline. Not spanking and trying to reason with an unreasonable child are two opposite ends of the spectrum. There are forms of discipline that work that don't involve physical violence.

Adults today have dead hearts. Why? Hmmm. I wonder.

2/01/2006 4:36 AM  
Blogger Bo Salisbury said...

Reason with a child?

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.


2/01/2006 6:04 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

In response to Kurt - I know of other Chicago area restaurants that have behavior policies for children. My favorite breakfast place has something called "Adult Swim" once per week after 7pm, none but the best behaved children are allowed.

I don't see this as anti-children. If anything, I think our society is a little too pro-children. But that's another rant.

This is the result of people waiting until later in life (and thus having larger incomes) to have children... My parents couldn't afford to take us all out to a 'fancy' restaurant but once or twice a year. Now Buffy and Chad bring their brats every week and I have to bring headache medicine? Something is wrong with that scenario.

2/01/2006 7:09 AM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

Gosh, Z. Thanks for the post. I love when a blog post just strengthens something I wholeheartedly believe in. I used to be in daycare and I was waitress. I can not begin to count the time a child was ASKING for a spank. I mean that literally: Asking for a spanking. Kids test their boundries and your JOB as a parent is to set those boundries so that when they are crossed--they know it.

My kids get that "look"
It doesn't matter where we are, they know that the "look" is a step away from being led into a privet place (usually a bathroom or the car) where they will be spanked.

I've wanted to spank some parents too. Here is my all-time favorite response from a non-spanking parent:
"Honey, are you feeling territorial today?"
this was the question the mom asked her boy that had just pushed my son off a play gym at the park. To which I said," Are you kidding?"

2/01/2006 8:40 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Scott - I'd have to disagree. I really don't think spanking was a negative factor in our upbringing.

If you can discipline without spanking, more power to you. I'm not for telling other parents how to raise children, unless they're letting their kids ruin everyone else's peace.

With Junior, we're very close and open about everything. And yes, he was spanked, but as I said, if done right, you only have to do it a few times. As for me, I have a huge amount of imagination and was spanked twice as much as Junior was.

Bo - Thanks for the Biblical reference. I didn't know that one.

The good things about children is they get wiser every year, so every year less discipline is needed. I've even known some absolutely wonderfully behaved teen-agers in my day.

Laura - If anything, I think our society is a little too pro-children.

I actually strongly agree with you here. The problem is the gov't wants to be the parent, and that strikes against everything I believe. I believe parents should be parents, and when someone else usurps the role, parents, well, let's just say if you don't use it, you lose it. That's why you so rarely see parents parent.

If I were in Chicago and Junior was spending the night at a friend's house, Mrs. Z and I would be at Adult Swim.

2/01/2006 8:41 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Sadie - Kids test their boundries and your JOB as a parent is to set those boundries so that when they are crossed--they know it.


"Honey, are you feeling territorial today?"
this was the question the mom asked her boy that had just pushed my son off a play gym at the park. To which I said," Are you kidding?"

Wow. This parent has consideration for other people. :(
Another fine example of someone who I'd wish was born sterile.

2/01/2006 8:43 AM  
Blogger clothosfate said...

Wow... this is a hot topic, and I can see that many people agree with you. I have spanked my son once in his life, when he was about 2 and it was for running into the street when giving him shit for it otherwise had no effect. It worked, sure. Especially because he NEVER got spanked, so it made the point. In my opinion at those very early ages is the ONLY time spanking is appropriate, and can be done without long-term harm.

For the longest time I thought my mother had not spanked me, ever. I thought this becasue I had no memories of ever fearing her in that way, but she told me, after my son was born, that she HAD spanked me when I was very little. I realized that this was the point, she did it when it was appropriate,and not in anger so I never assoiciated it with fear of punishment or wrath from her. Unfortuantly my step father used spanking with other forms of violence (emotional and intimidation by grabbing or shaking) as I was growing up and it really hurt me terribly. It made it MORE difficult to deal with discipline and punshiment issues later in life.

I cannot hit a child, and I refuse to hit anyone else unless I have no other choice. I have an excellent child and I can tell you, it was NOT that one spanking that made him that way, it was my willingness and ability to face my OWN issues, with discipline as well as with any other thing I am teaching him, I am intentional all the way, and I intentionally teach him respect and caring and give him firm boundaries. Its true kids will throw everything they've got at you, its their job, but if you resort to hitting them, beyond the little bit in very early ages, then you only teach them that you are not equipped to deal with what they throw at you and you would rather resort to childish behaviours instead.

Teaching our children to fight is a great thing, but it is not synonymous with teaching them to be hurtful. It IS synonymous with teaching them to be responsible.

2/01/2006 9:58 AM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

spanking is not hitting. I love when non-spanking parents give examples of thier parenting strategies in the best, most condusive light and then reduce spanking to "hitting".
When spanking is used correctly--your child would be able to recognize the difference between being hit and being spanked. If you asked my children if they have ever been hit by me or my husband--they would say no.

2/01/2006 10:19 AM  
Blogger Scott said...

But Sadie, spanking is hitting. That is not a reduction. In order to spank, you have to hit. When you hit you hurt. Clothsofate has it just right: you are teaching your child that you don't have the mental capacity to deal with the problem, so you resort to hitting, which teaches them in turn to do the same. Zombies reaction to a running child was the threaten the parent. That behavior is taught. What is also taught is how to reason and talk. Which reaction would you rather your child had? I have the reverse problem that you have. I hear spanking-parents justifying their actions like they are on a higher plain, somehow glorifying the spanking as the hand of love, as if love guided their motion. On the other hand, I think the person who didn't discipline their child for swatting another kid is teaching the kid the same lesson spanking does.

2/01/2006 10:37 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

the physical act of spanking may be hitting, but the meaning we attach to the acts are very different. Hitting is done out of anger, exasperation, or other negative emotional states. Spanking is done as a disciplinary measure for the long-term best interests for the child. None but the most egregious of behaviors warrant spanking.

2/01/2006 11:05 AM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

I took child development classes in order to get credits to be a teacher's aid. You cannot REASON with a very small child. They lack the ability to be reasonable. If a two year old is running around biting other children, I have never in my years of being in daycare, seen a teacher or aid reason with that two year old to not bite. I have seen lengthy conversations between child and teacher where the teacher says," It is not okay to bite. Biting hurts. Would you want someone to bite you?" All of which is forgotten the moment that child walks away from the "discussion". I also haven't seen a daycare worker spank a child. So what to do? How is the problem solved?
I am thinking of three situations that I had first hand involvement with:
One child that bit didn't respond to reasoning, time outs, or any other form of punishment like depriving the child of activities he enjoyed. In talking with the parents to see what course of action was being done at home-- we were met with the sad realization that NOTHING was being done at home beyond just telling the child not to bite at school.
We asked the parents not to bring their child back.

The next example is a little girl that bite everyone. She didn't respond to time outs or reasoning. At home, the parents never witnessed her biting so it was a "school" thing. We figured if the girl couldn't stop biting, she'd have to be excused as well. The next day, she bit the wrong the child. She was bitten back. Problem solved. She was told in a language she understood that biting hurts and biting is wrong.

The next example is a biter that bit me. There was a child that threw temper tantrums all the time. One time, he was getting dangerously close to hurting himself or other children during the fit. I picked him up to move him to another room and he bit me on the shoulder.
I called the child's parents.
The father came straight away and took the child in another room where he instructed the child why he was getting a spank. Then he spanked him. Then he told the child he loved him and gave him a hug.
Two hours later, the child bit another child.
I called the parents.
The father came and repeated the process.
This child never bit again.
No amount of "reasoning" would have solved this problem. Consistancy and following through and being spanked by an adult that loves the child is foolproof.

2/01/2006 11:33 AM  
Blogger Scott said...

I didn't say that spanking doesn't produce a desired result. Of course it has results, that's why they call it the easy way out. If my son were biting someone, I'd take care of it just as surely as a loving spanker. You don't reason with a child that is in the heat of the moment, so you take the child away. And if they don't listen, then they are removed from the stimulus until they do. It doesn't always work, but neither does spanking work either, but the latter may have more instantaneous and gratifying results in the short term. I won't sacrifice my children so that a few grumpy and put-out adults can enjoy their beer. No offense Zombie!

2/01/2006 11:54 AM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

I know you're a great father--I read your posts! I just see a lot of inconsistancy in the way people parent and I've just never known inconsistancy to be a good thing for a child's development.
It makes for a lot of mixed messages as to consequences for bad behavior.
I also didn't like that you assume spanking parents don't have the mental capacity to deal with issues as they arise--they just "hit".

2/01/2006 12:06 PM  
Blogger Scott said...

Oh, and Laura, I understand the difference, but I think that most spanking is done in knee-jerk reactionary style, not as a well-thought out option of many. Sadie describes a good case where it was thought out, but I personally grew up getting whacked for every infraction from walking in front of the tv to accidentally spilling my milk. Once you start it gets easier and easier.

2/01/2006 12:16 PM  
Blogger Scott said...

Sadie, no offense intended. Spanking is taught, and so we turn around and do it in turn, and justify our actions. I'm over-simplifying to say that all spanking is bad, and I don't mean to say that if you do spank you are bad. I just want you to think about it. Can you honestly say that everytime you spanked a child there was no other effective alternative? Zombie thinks so, and he didn't do it much. I agree that sometimes it is called for, but I don't want to give the world a pass and say so because we have a tendency to go over the line to test the limits.

2/01/2006 12:20 PM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

actually, I don't do much of the spanking, my husband does and we haven't been spanking the kids much because they are old enough to handle other consequences and I have a 5 month old! So, we've been a spank-free zone for awhile now but yes, we've had some moments where we could have spanked out of anger but Dan and I are pretty good about recognizing the need for a parental time-out before we deal with the kids.
I'm more hot-blooded than Dan so I'm REAL good at knowing my limits.
Honestly, I spanked Ryan one time when I was hot and it felt awful. I tearfully asked him to forgive me and he did.
I haven't been *there* since.

2/01/2006 12:33 PM  
Blogger Scott said...

It's hard, and I'm glad you worked it out with your son. I posted a long time ago about a little boy that I spanked when I was baby sitting--I wasn't much more than a boy myself--and it still haunts me today.

2/01/2006 12:55 PM  
Blogger Joe said...

I was spanked as a kid.
A leather slipper and a brown leather belt were administered regularly.

I think it generally kept my brother and me in line.
On the other hand, we'd both get the belt even if only one of us were bad. It was usually my brother's fault!

That part wasn't so productive.

I also remember being pretty depressed during report card season... Maybe the belt and the slipper had something to do with it.

Who knows, maybe that also had something to do with my rambuctious, substance abusing adolescence.

2/01/2006 1:52 PM  
Blogger Shawn said...

I'm gone for a few days and now we're beating kids? Okay...I'm down with that. I would like to personally spank some of the kids I've seen out at stores and restaurants.

Parents need to stop trying to be their kids' pals and start being their parents.

2/01/2006 2:19 PM  
Blogger Slade said...

I am laughing aloud!

2/01/2006 3:09 PM  
Blogger Laura said...

Scott Said: "I think that most spanking is done in knee-jerk reactionary style, not as a well-thought out option of many."

Absolutely. This can be said about much of our cultural habits...

2/01/2006 3:32 PM  
Blogger neal said...

I got spanked a few times as a kid. I prefered the good ass whupping over a lecture any time. I used to think to myself, c'mon, smack me with the belt and get it over with.

I don't spank my son any more, but I did give him the occasional whack on the behind when he wouldn't listen. The last time I did it was when he was about 6. He kept running out into the street and I kept telling him to get his butt back into the driveway before he got hit by a car. He wouldn't listen so I smacked him in the behind pretty hard. Knocked his feet out from under him and he walked back to the driveway and laid down pouting. I asked him if it hurt, and he said a little. I then said getting hit by a car hurts alot worse. He got the point.

2/01/2006 5:21 PM  
Blogger Mokuyobi said...

dude, why do so many people read your blog? I think three people read mine. then again, mine has nothign to say but 'porno porno wah wah rock climbing sex boobies'

2/01/2006 5:29 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Clothosfate - As I've said, if you can control a toddler without spanking, more power to you. I strongly think however that running in front of a car should be an automatic spanking. As much as a spanking hurts, it would be hundreds of times better than getting hit by a car.

It's weird how children who were spanked don't mind spanking, but when spanking was accompanied by violence, they become anti-spanking. My wife agrees more with you, but she was hit closed fisted.

Scott and Sadie - Excellent points both of you, and I'm so glad that both of you could debate and stay focused on the debate without attacking each other. Wish everyone was like that.

I'm convinced if you spank correctly, you only have to do it four or five times and it's early in their lives. Spanking gets replaced with a loud, authoritative voice, which gets replaced with reason when a child is ready to be reasoned with. At eleven, Junior has already reached that level. I never even have to raise my voice at him any more.

Laura - Funny how despite our differences, we have some things that we're so much in common with.

Joe - That really sucks about you getting blamed too when it wasn't your fault. That's something that always drove me nuts. I got yelled at by a yard duty to pick up someone else's mess. I told her whose mess it was and flat out refused to pick it up, because I didn't do it. I still remember that.

My parents usually blamed me, but that's because I was the bad kid.

Shawn - Welcome back.
Parents need to stop trying to be their kids' pals and start being their parents.

Completely agreed. If parents would only parent, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Slade - At which comment? My post?

Neal - I asked him if it hurt, and he said a little. I then said getting hit by a car hurts alot worse. He got the point.

the thing is, him getting the point may have saved his life.

Mokuyobi - I think it's because people are realizing the importance of protecting themselves from the upcoming zombie plague. So they come here for the articles. As much as we all like sex, survival is more important right now.

Hey, I finally found a source for Canadian money. :)

2/01/2006 6:52 PM  
Blogger exMI said...

Would spanking zombies have any usefull effect?

2/02/2006 6:55 AM  
Blogger Heather Rayne said...

I have been raising my step daughter since she was 15 months old. Her mother has told us MANY times that she not only uses spanking as her only means of discipline, but also pulls her hair and slaps her across the face (since she was 2 - she is now 6). I myself am not very much a believer in corporal punishment, but I have spanked her (open handed on the butt) MAYBE 5 times in 5 years. Recently I spanked her and made the mistake of doing it on her bare butt. It left a mark. Her mother, knowing very well I am nothing close to an abuser went to the ER (tho it was obvious there was no injury or medical attention necessary) and had the cops called. I am now being investigated and could be charged as a felon. I have never even had a speeding ticket in my life. I am a SAHM and my family is everything to me. The mother told us several days later that she is doing this 'to get control' because we have primary placement due to her emmense instability. I was about to get into a program for Social Work and finish my degree. I also had hopes of one day running for public office. This is already going to be on my record whether I am convicted or not. Not to mention what this has and will do to my family and marriage (tho husband is supporting me 100%). My step daughter (who I have been basically the primary care giver to for years) now feels I am a danger (many things have been put into her head) and that she is this huge victim. Life will never be the same for any of us.

I wish I had listened to that inner voice that has always disagreed with corporal punishment.

I will write more about this on my blog as soon as it is all over legally speaking.

2/02/2006 10:47 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Exmi - Any physical contact with zombies is a bad thing. This is something that needs to be addressed. Many a martial artist has died by thinking he can use his unarmed combat skills to defeat a zombie, only to get bitten and become a zombie himself.

If you should ever encounter a zombie, it would be best to used a ranged weapon. If none is available, use something to destroy the brain without letting his head come anywhere near biting distance of any part of your body.

Heather - That story is horrible. Not only that, I don't know if this would concern you, but it concerns me greatly - you will not be allowed to own any firearms.

The whole anti-spanking thing has gotten way out of control. There's a huge difference between spanking and doing what her mother did to her. Her mother seems like a child abuser, and is using the minor thing you did to destroy you. This is the height of hypocracy.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. I hope it gets resolved without too much damage.

2/02/2006 7:07 PM  
Blogger Mokuyobi said...

damn you, nothing is more important than sex! Except eating. Mmm.

2/02/2006 7:53 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Mokuyobi - You can't think like that.

Think of it this way. If you get bitten by a zombie, you'll die in about an hour and another hour you'll come back as a zombie. Or maybe it's a little longer. Anyways, the point is, there's very little sex you can have in that short amount of time.

Now, from inside the anti-zombie compound when the plague starts, take one guess what the two big past-times will be. Yup, sex and eating.

2/02/2006 8:29 PM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

I'm convinced if you spank correctly, you only have to do it four or five times and it's early in their lives. Spanking gets replaced with a loud, authoritative voice, which gets replaced with reason when a child is ready to be reasoned with. At eleven, Junior has already reached that level. I never even have to raise my voice at him any more.

Exactly. We haven't spanked for quite some time because we have older children that are pretty hip to be reasoned with (7 and 9) and one that's too young--(5 months).

2/03/2006 8:43 AM  
Blogger clothosfate said...

After having stated my position on spanking, which is hitting no matter how you ice the cake, I will also agree with Sadie lou that very young children do not have the mental capacity to be reasoned with, those pathways are not yet created in their brains. It always makes me angry to see a parent basically 'abusing' their 2 or 3 yr old child by tring to get them to be reasonable or to understand the parents point of view. Basically they are expecting their children to take on a role of responsibility that is inappropriate and generally leads to resentment and worse tantrums. A child absolutly NEEDS to feel that Mom and Dad have it under control, no matter what the chid is throwing at them. This is another reason I don't do spanking, to me it is not a statement of having it under control, it is a statement of not knowing what else to do, a lack of options. Although I also do agree with the Zombieslayer that a smack to the bottom is way less painful then getting hit by a car. This si the only time I think spanking is appropriate, when the situation is very dangerous and the child needs immediate comprehension of the danger.

2/03/2006 9:42 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Sadie - I think the last time I ever had to even raise my voice at Junior (besides when I'm barking orders playing football) was a year or two ago. he's pretty good about reasoning now. So yeah, 7 and 9 are good ages. I am fearing the teens though. That's a whole different beast.

Clothosfate - Well, from your blog, your son seems pretty together for his age, so you seem to be doing a fine job raising him. Props for being able to do it without spanking.

Is spanking losing control? Depends on the deliverer. When I got angry at Junior when he was little, I yelled at him. That was more losing control. A spanking was always an immediate thing, like running in front of a car, or one time he was tired of walking and sat down in the middle of a hotel driveway.

I gave him a hard spanking and later explained to him why. Cars can't see a toddler standing, much less sitting. Of all the stupid things to do. Isn't being a parent fun sometimes? :p

2/03/2006 6:47 PM  
Blogger clothosfate said...

:) You can say that again, it is the most difficult, and yet important job ever.

I also think that just yelling can be a loss of control, although I honestly don't think you should always avoid losing some control with your children, what I mean is: people get angry sometimes, parents have limits and sometimes children cross them, its ok, it happens and as long as that doesn't consist of beating your child, it is a good lesson for them to learn. So that hopefully, one day when they find themseves losing some control, they wont think its the end of the world and make it even worse with guilt and shame. People get angry and aren't always on their best behaviour... thats life.

2/03/2006 6:59 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Clothosfate - Glad you understand that parents lose control sometimes. But then again, you're a parent, so you know how hard it is.

2/03/2006 7:52 PM  
Blogger Sadie Lou said...

Oh goodness. Don't get me started on teens. I'm going on that youth retreat tomorrow. Dan and I will sharing a cabin with two other adults and 15 boys (and baby Andy)--ack.

2/03/2006 8:53 PM  
Blogger Kurt said...

Sorry zombie. I usually know better. Check out te article here:
A Taste of Heaven

2/06/2006 12:41 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Sadie - All right. I won't. ;)

Hope the retreat went well.

Kurt - Thanks a bunch for the link. That guy is my hero. :)

2/06/2006 9:22 PM  
Anonymous geopax said...

Regarding your comment on spanking children, spanking is a failure of disclipine. It unquestionablely can lead to child abuse and often does. Children who are brought up with love and firmness do not need to be spanked. What kind of society is this where we dont spank criminals but we spank innocent children? Spanking teaches children that violence is an acceptable behavoir. The old statement "Violence begets violence" is also true when it comes to spanking children.
Child Protective Services has learned that spanking is not productive and have outlawed it. Children should be disclipined by reward and punishment not beating on their body. We must be firm, consistent, show love and respect, but keep never strike our children.

3/21/2006 9:34 AM  

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