Wednesday, August 24, 2005

They only take the jobs no one else would take

I hear this all the time from people who just love illegal aliens. And it's a lie.

Do you want to know why it gets propogated? I'll tell you. The corporations are greedy and don't have to pay illegals as much as they pay Americans. And some of those corporations own a lot of the media outlets. So they bombard us with these lies.

Now, you know me. You know how I feel about legal immigrants. Not one of my relatives were here from the Mayflower. I have no American Indian blood. My father's side got here in the 1800s, my mother's a legal immigrant herself. But that's the thing. Legal. She was tested on things like the Constitution and other things about America that every American ought to know. Illegals don't learn this stuff, and frankly, illegal immigrants are a slap in the face for all those legal immigrants who had to go through loops and hurdles to become an American.

Here's the deal. Next time someone tells you that they do the jobs Americans don't do, ask them for a list.

They mow the lawn. Wow! I mow my own lawn.

Landscaping? My old drummer works in the family landscaping business.

Migrant farm workers? Wife's done it.

Janitor? One of my best friends was the janitor for our community college.

Hotel and restaurant workers? Done that for years before getting into computers.

Cleaning up the highways? In some states, prisoners do that.

Refinery work? I grew up in a refinery town and everyone there was white or black American.

After that, they still say, "well, I'm sure there are other jobs."

That's nice. But if you're going to make a statement, you need to back it up. And so far, nobody has yet to name a job that Americans won't do that we need illegals for.


Blogger Jason said...

It's a myth to keep wages down. Another way of saying it is "well, we need to exploit SOMEBODY." Until our wonderful government cracks down on employers who hire them, it's going to be tough to stem the tide.

8/24/2005 11:38 AM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

It's only the big corporate farms(which scare the hell outta me) that need migrant workers. Back in the old days, family farmers helped their neighbors bring in the harvest. Schools also let out for a couple of weeks so kids could lend a hand and earn some money.

8/24/2005 12:10 PM  
Blogger Laura said...

I think it should be clarified - they only take the WAGES that Americans don't want... it has nothing to do with the work or the job. I agree, it's because they can get away with paying them next to nothing. Which is an immigration AND human rights issue.

8/24/2005 12:11 PM  
Blogger The Zombie Lama said...

Well, how about...

Funny, I can't think of any either. It's no longer the big corporations that are hiring them either. It's local mom and pop stores as well. Heck, there was a restaurant here that had a raid about a year ago. The entire cook and wait staff were deported!!! This happened twice at the same place before management changed hands. Don't know what happened to the old managers... they probably moved down the street...

8/24/2005 12:21 PM  
Blogger Joe said...

Well, the daylaborers who stand on the street corners make $10 an hour or so, tax-free.
Whether or not that's exploitive is questionable.

You're right though, lots of people will work those jobs.
Except rich people of course.

8/24/2005 12:26 PM  
Blogger United We Lay said...

Dude, if I was out of work and my family was hungry, I would stand on the side of the road selling whatever I could get my hands on. The problem is pride. Laziness and pride.

8/24/2005 1:01 PM  
Blogger Ben said...

thank you ZS, I get so tired of that line too.

8/24/2005 1:12 PM  
Blogger Ben said...

ZS, looks like it's time to put in that spam blocker now too ;)

8/24/2005 1:12 PM  
Blogger Moni said...

Not only do we have to worry about them taking our jobs, we have to worry about companys selling our jobs to other countries. In this area we've lost the textile, and furniture industries to Mexico.(nothing against Mexico or Mexicans) They say it's because Americans don't want to pay higher prices for American made goods, well maybe if everyone had a job we'd be able to. I agree with you whole-heartedly Zombie..right on.

8/24/2005 1:20 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Good points all.

As for the corporate farms, I'll do a separate post on that. Those irk me for three reasons:
1) they pay next to nothing,
2) they destroy family farms,
3) environmental. family farms are so much better for the environment.

But I'll do a separate post on that.

It's time for us to do something about it. I'd love to see a real gov't crackdown on hitting employers who hire them hard. Make them scared to hire illegals.

As for outsourcing the jobs, that's yet another post. I've had a job outsourced, so I know what it's like for someone who's been working for years, does a great job at what they do, and suddenly finds themselves scrambling to figure out ways to pay their bills. Not a fun thing to go through.

As for lost taxes, that's another post. That's another way it hurts us hard-working Americans is we have to make up the difference in the taxes lost.

I'll have to do another separate post on the human rights/exploitation aspect of it as well.

Wow, I'm really impressed by the responses here. :)

8/24/2005 1:44 PM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

I did the word verification thing yesterday, and so far so good!
I'd much rather type in a few letters than delete all that damned spam.

8/24/2005 2:47 PM  
Blogger sygyzy said...

Only problem is your examples are the exception, not the rule.

8/24/2005 3:23 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Tshsmom - Yeah, I got the idea from Ben. I was deleting on the average about ten a day. Unreal.

Sygyzy - Well, if you'd pay someone what they're worth, believe me, Americans would take these jobs in a heartbeat. Keep in mind that twenty years ago, all these positions I mentioned were filled by Americans.

8/24/2005 3:28 PM  
Blogger sygyzy said...

You are right, there are alot of "but, if's". If you had better American Universities and smarter American students, tech companies would not have to resort to outsourcing to foreign countries. If companies would pay above slave labor, Nike would not open shop in Vietnam. But the fact is, the majority of Americans will not do the jobs you have described. They are labor jobs that almost anyone could become good at.

Everyone talks about the good ol days, how it used to be. But not a single one of you would go out picking grapes on a 100 degree day for 8 hours. And you'll also complain when your fruit and vegetables cost 3x as much.

Believe me, I don't like illegals either. None of my family came here illegally. In fact, we spent over 20 years arranging for my my aunt, uncle, and cousins to come over. TWENTY YEARS.

But to not at least give credit to a situation because it's ugly is the same as saying slavery or the didn't happen. Albeit, to a far lesser extent, obviously.

8/24/2005 3:50 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Sygyzy - Actually, I'd strongly disagree. Italians are a First World people and they've been picking grapes in Italian heat for hundreds of years.

If I could take you around the country, I'll show you where exactly factories used to be that did the manufacturing jobs. The areas to this day are still depressed. If you go around asking folks if they'd take their old manufacturing jobs back instead of the crappy job at Wal-Mart, most would say yes.

As for the outsourcing, Americans are the smartest people on earth. If you don't believe me, I'll show you a list of Nobel Prize winners. In 2003, we won every single one except for Lit. We also code the best software (except for Microcrap) and almost all the good software architects are Americans.

India and China haven't come up with a thing when it comes to software. Nothing, absolutely nothing. They've supplied workers, but neither nations invented anything. 2.2 billion people between them and they don't have the brains that the 270 million Americans do.

Ever since outsourcing got big and the bottom fell out, a lot of talented folks started working elsewhere. Even my real estate agent is a former software engineer, and a good one too. He decided he'd rather not deal with all the b.s. we have to deal with anymore and is now in real estate instead.

Another thing, picking grapes is nothing compared to picking watermelons. One of my guys in my calc class picked watermelons. Now that's hard work.

8/24/2005 4:22 PM  
Blogger Slade said...

I actually agree with you on this one, ZS. I took a deep breath when I read the post title, but I think this is a legitimate reason to be pissed at something...hehe

hey, do you think that illegal aliens are actually zombies in disguise and one day, when they completely cover American terrain are all gonna turn on us??? Can I reserve a spot in your zombie shelter?

8/24/2005 4:43 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Slade - I thought I had already invited you. You're way too cool to be left to die.

8/24/2005 5:07 PM  
Blogger sygyzy said...

But you can't cross an American with an octopus.

8/24/2005 5:14 PM  
Blogger The Humanity Critic said...

Just passing through, cool blog by the way.

8/24/2005 5:59 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Sygyzy - You're too funny. I don't think anyone else will get that one.

Good luck at poker tonight. Oh, I tried posting on your blog but blogger's being funny again.

8/24/2005 6:00 PM  
Blogger Miranda said...

I used to have a more liberal stance on immigration. After all, my Grandpa came here from Czechleslovakia, and even illegal immigrants have made some contributions to society.

But with so many rapes and violent crimes being committed by illegal immigrants and with employment conditions being what they are, I have to admit that tighter enforcement of immigration laws is necessary.

Good post, Slayer.

8/24/2005 8:05 PM  
Blogger sygyzy said...

zombie - The servers needed to have two drives replaced. It was unexpected and caused dns problems.

miranda - "Even illegal immigrants have made contributions to society."


8/25/2005 12:41 AM  
Blogger dusty said...

If the Government did their job and prevented the "illegal" immigrants from entering the US we wouldn't be having this discussion! You hoist all this negative energy on the illegals and all they are doing is trying to feed their families and make a living..I think the blame has to be put in the proper place..The Border Patrol and the US government. If you stem the tide of illegals entering, the cheap workforce dries up. Then, you all can go pick your fruit and vegitables since most of you seem to think its a decent job and you would do it if the price was right.

8/25/2005 2:15 AM  
Blogger Jenn said...

OoOoh, I'm not touching this one...

8/25/2005 3:49 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

Dusty: A good point and I agree to an extent. However, we all know the government is not as powerful as corporations, especially in the age of global trade agreements. If the government cracked down on the companies and made it less desireable for them to hire illegals, there would be more progress made than just enforcing border patrols.

I also think that illegals, regardless of their illegal status, are human beings and do have human rights. They are trying to feed their families and I appreciate that. But it's more dangerous for them to fall through the cracks of our system - because then they can be exploited without legal recourse. Hurt on the job? too bad. Boss screwed you out of money? too bad. Want to unionize? too bad.

Companies should not be allowed to treat people that way, illegal or legal citizens.

8/25/2005 6:28 AM  
Blogger exMI said...

Well, at least no one is calling for the Army to guard the borders. (yet)
I personally have very little issue with the illegals. If they actually shut it down completely the economy of the Southwest would tank. They provide too much of the labor force. The comment about wages is the telling issue. Most US citizens are not excited about being ag workers. Way too much labor for what they will see as too little pay. And do we really want to pay what food would cost if the wages went up to what Americans would demand? I don't.

8/25/2005 7:09 AM  
Blogger Scott said...

Good of you to point that out Zombie. I'm sick of all the rationalization of illegal immigration, and although I've been a Bush supporter (ouch, hey don't throw things) I am embarassed that he won't lift a finger to close our borders and enforce our laws, and protect us from people that obviously mean us harm.

8/25/2005 7:51 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Miranda - Oh no! Czech jokes. I only have one and not enough for a post. :(
Looks like the Zombieslayer's going to have to do some research.

As for the criminal aspect, I'll bring that up in a separate post.

Sygyny - Had no idea you actually hosted until Dave told me tonight. I bought an AIX box from Ebay wanting to host my own domains, but was just too lazy. Very cool that you do.

Dusty - You hoist all this negative energy on the illegals and all they are doing is trying to feed their families and make a living.

Very well said. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably be doing the same thing they are. I put the blame squarely on the Bush Administration and two or three administrations prior.

Jenn - No problem. It's like I won't touch religion, abortion, and a few others.

Laura - The problem is by weakening the labor force with illegals, who are scared to speak up, the power of corporations grow at the expense of the American worker. One reason I voted for Nader in '96 and '00 was he realized this and would have penalized the corporations so badly that they would have been paranoid to hire illegals.

If he won, mark my words, you'd be making $10 more an hour more than you are now. The price of lettuce will be slightly more, but good. You'll be paying what you should be paying anyways.

Exmi - I disagree. I'd be a farmer in a heartbeat if I could make a living off of it. From my travels around America, I've seen too much meth abuse from the children of former family farmers put out of work by the corporate farmers that employ illegals, undercutting the family farmers and putting them out of business. But alas, this is yet another separate post. It's my family farms vs corporate farms argument and why illegals are hurting family farms.

Scott - My biggest beef with the current administration is their support for illegal aliens.

8/25/2005 9:33 AM  
Blogger Laura said...

"If they actually shut it down completely the economy of the Southwest would tank. They provide too much of the labor force."

Exmi - that's what Southern proponents of slavery said about abolition too. The economy will find a way to recover - letting that guide a moral decision is wrong. Basically what these people make is slave wages, and the only reason they make slave wages is because they have no other choice.

8/25/2005 9:51 AM  
Blogger Becky said...

Definitely a myth, I was watching Carlos Mencia's new show, and he had said something about how they were all taking the jobs no one wanted! Well shit, I'd like to have my own fucking t.v. show like Carlos! And he's one of them, no no no, let me correct myself, his parens immigrated here, so born on American soil, he's a citizen, (I say with a snarl on my face!)

8/25/2005 12:15 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Laura - Well said.

Rebecca - That's really too bad he said that. He's a real funny guy. I'd love to challenge him to list those jobs.

8/25/2005 1:19 PM  
Blogger dusty said...

Illegals PAY TAXES, they work very hard for what little they make, no one is going to be rushing out to pick cotton or food if the labor dries up.To spend money to inforce the immigration laws on corporate america is stupid and wasteful. All business's will hire the cheapest that they can get. To say that illegals hurt us is totally ridiculous.If you have never picked grapes DO NOT tell me its not hard work. I have picked grapes and baby it sucks.Nothing like being bent over for hours on end in 100 degree heat. Some of our nations best and brightest minds came from families that started as ILLEGALS..and do not think for a moment that most illegals wouldnt want to become citizens..they would love nothing better.Its not just corporate farms that use in the San Joaquin Valley ALL farms use them.The myth is in the fact that most people assume illegals are a blight on say they are criminals and thats total crap..a small percentage are idiots just as a small percentage of our own CITIZENS are criminals. I would rather see an illegal standing on a corner willing to work than some guy sitting on his ass with a sign saying "feed me". Illegals can not sponge off the system as most welfare mothers are even though they pay their taxes.If you want to pay 6 bucks for a melon or a bag of grapes then go ahead and pick up all the illegals, cuz that's what will happen if you round them up and americans start harvesting food.People have the nads to sit in their comfy houses and bitch about illegals and they havent got a clue..the farm workers here in Cali HAVE a union, it protects them as best it can, the job of farmworker is a hazardous job and very hard on the body.If you want to end the trail of dead bodies of the people that try to get over that hell between mexico and america you need a closed border that keeps them from trying. Tighter security on our borders will also keep those that actually wish us harm from getting in.The percentage of illegals working as "day laborers" is very small compared to the amount that work as farmworkers and restaurants. They have to have a social security number in order to work so They pay taxes, pay rent and buy our goods. The farmworkers put MORE into the economy than they get out but everyone bitches about them.. amazing..

8/25/2005 1:43 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Dusty - I'm not knocking them as people. As I've said, I'd probably be doing the same thing if I were in their shoes.

But let's take your argument point by point. Farming is hard work, but very rewarding. Sure I haven't done it for years, but the time I've done it, it felt a lot more rewarding than sitting at a desk growing a gut and having to deal with political correctness.

Corporate farming is causing the death of the family farm in America. This is a serious crisis and it's hard for the common city person to understand. And corporate farming is fueled by illegals, not by Americans.

As for restaurant work, well, that used to be me in high school and college and three years after college. It's hard for young Americans to get those jobs now, because illegals have them all. I saved up enough money as a busboy and later a waiter to help put myself through grad school (loaning the rest).

As for crime, that's an entirely different argument that I'll refute later.

As for me being comfortably in a couch complaining about illegals, far from it. That's exactly what I was saying. A lot of us Americans, more people than folks realize, came from struggling families and those struggling Americans are competing with struggling illegals.

Do you think every person on the corner with a sign that says "feed me" wants to be there? Sure, some of them are frauds, but some of them would be glad to take any work you can give them. My old boss used to pick them up to clean his restaurant and boy did they do a wonderful job.

Once again, I'm not blaming the illegals. I'm blaming the system. As Edward Abbey used to say, we ought to hand them a rifle and send them back to finish the revolution.

8/25/2005 2:08 PM  
Blogger Laura said...

Dusty: I think you're confusing the issue here.

No one is saying that illegals don't work hard. No one (at least not as far as I know) is saying that illegals shouldn't have the opportunity to emigrate legally.

Illegals put themselves and their own families at risk of falling through beauracratic cracks, by virtue of their illegal status. I used to work with a counseling group for teen mothers, many of whom were illegal immigrants. They were afraid to go to the hospital, or speak up if their bosses harassed them at work. I don't buy into "they're a threat to US" but they put themselves at risk. And the fact that we allow them to be paid slave wages contributes to their implied second-class status.

As for the economic 'problem' - if we enforce labor laws for everyone, illegals included, businesses will hire fewer illegals because their pool of cheap labor has dried up. thus solving BOTH problems.

8/25/2005 2:14 PM  
Blogger tshsmom said...

I don't know about you guys, but I DO pay $6 for a bag of grapes or a melon.

8/25/2005 3:30 PM  
Blogger Heather said...

The problem is there is no simple fix. Border Patrol is not enough...there is too much border.

The US really needs to meet in the middle. I mean, here we are this super wealthy country, being bordered by a super poor country, so what can anybody expect? It seems nice that everybody can just come on over legally, but this isn't realistic with the current system in place.

I am surprised that you haven't talked more about your gov Arnold's current solution to the problem in Cali.

8/25/2005 9:13 PM  
Blogger Levi Nunnink said...

I should preface this saying that I have nothing against illegals personaly. I'm 50-percent mexican so I'm pretty sure that I'm not racist. I've also had a lot of friends that were illegals.

That being said, I think illegal immagration is horrible for our country. It will totally mess up our culture and infastructure. We can't have people pouring across border that don't understand our country, our ideals and history and expect to keep what makes us who we are as Americans intact.

Not to mention the damage it does to our infastructure to have millions of undocumented people being added to the population.

Just a few of the many problems with the situation.

8/25/2005 9:56 PM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Levi - I know you're not racist and I totally agree with you. I'll do a separate post on what you brought up later though, how it's hurting the infrastructure.

I too have had dear friends who were illegal, and I've been deep into Mexico where they only spoke Spanish and I did fine. So calling either of us racist just doesn't fly.

Heather - I'll do a separate post on why we need to build the middle-class in Mexico. My plan is to stop trading with China completely (they have nukes pointed at us, so screw them) and we'll do that same trading we do with China with Mexico instead. That will give the ones who will be illegals jobs in Mexico, and will build a middle-class there. I'd sincerely love to see Mexico as a First World nation. I love visiting Mexico. My wife and I had the best time of our life there.

Tshsmom - Well, in California, you don't have to truck the stuff very far. That's probably why.

Laura - Thanks. Good explaination and I have nothing to add.

8/25/2005 10:31 PM  
Blogger dusty said...

now your line is corporate farming not the illegals are hosing us? And nothing but illegals in the restaurant biz are taking jobs from kids? please SZ, the kids I know that could get such jobs are above them these days. They would rather work ANY where else than flip burgers or wait tables.Illegals don't wait tables so there goes that arguement due to the language barrier. Kids would rather work at the corner electronic store where they get a discount for their next X Box than Burger King where they get a free meal every shift. Illegals are taking the jobs from the homeless? How can you logically assume that one? The majority of Homeless people have more than a job issue, usually a mental health issue or drug habit started the whole homeless process for them. As far as "Ahnold" and his plans for the world, I highly doubt he will be in office after this term and he hasn't done a damn thing yet in his administration other than fight with the legislature and usurp their power or attempt to. How in the world do illegals mess up our "culture"? Folks toss out these phrases and nothing to back them up. I still think stopping them at the border will make the rest of this argument moot.And since its obvious the Gov'tment is not going to stop them at the border there is very little that can be done once they get into society. It's like paying your taxes which is basically an honor system. Corporations have laws they are supposed to adhere to regarding their hiring practices. If there isn't enough health inspectors to enforce those laws, there damn sure isn't enough inspectors to enforce hiring laws. It comes down to priorities and going after Corporations for hiring practices is pretty far down the list these days with cutbacks and states drowning in red ink.

8/25/2005 11:39 PM  
Blogger exMI said...

As long a doctor can make more money cutting lettuce in California at "slave wages" than he can being a doctor in Mexico there is going to be movement across the border. And yes, I have talked to lettuce cutter who were doctors, lawyers, and other "proffesionals" who gave it up for the money.
Now the real solution would be to invest in Mexico, get their economy firing storng so that they don't need to rush across our border.

8/26/2005 6:20 AM  
Blogger United We Lay said...

I see fines. Heavy fines. But I see them in my dreams because the government will never do anything about illegals. We may have to take it into our own hands. Find out who emplys them and call INS.

8/26/2005 7:37 AM  
Blogger The Zombieslayer said...

Dusty - If it appears that I'm changing the topic, it's because it is showing to be a problem in other areas as well, not just economics. But as I said, I'll bring those ones up in other posts.

The original problem is simply I am refuting the lies that illegals are only taking the jobs Americans won't take. These are lies, and so far, almost everyone agrees with me on this point.

I know this first hand. I've had my job outsourced. Usually, I'd be able to get onto a construction crew. Can't do that now because illegals are working them and now and because of that, the wages are too low to make any money doing it.

As for the kids, you must know a lot of spoiled kids. Most kids I know would be glad to take one of those busboy jobs that illegals now have. If you work at a place where the waiting staff shares tips with the bussers, it's decent money. I know, I've done it. Not anymore, illegals have all those jobs.

For every job people try to name, I'll find plenty of Americans who would love to take those jobs. Refinery work? When I grew up it was all Americans. I grew up next to a refinery. I know this first hand.

As for picking grapes, the whole reason why those jobs are so dangerous is because those are now all corporate farms employing illegals so they don't have to have the safety standards they'd have to follow had those been Americans working those jobs, as they were before the illegals. For the record, I'm old enough to remember those days.

And yes, that problem could be solved if we'd do two steps - tighter border patrols and tougher penalties for corporations who hire illegals. That's what I'm getting at.

And as I've already said twice now, I don't blame the illegals. I'd probably do the same thing if I were in their shoes. I blame the current Administration, the past two or three Administrations, and corporate greed.

I do have a plan to build up a strong middle-class in Mexico. I'll post that too later. I'd love more than anything to see Mexico be a first world nation.

Sorry Dusty, you're going to have to wait though. Those are all separate posts.

Exmi - Heh. That will probably be my next in the series of posts. How to build a solid middle-class in Mexico.

PC - Go for it. We need people to call the INS on employers. I'd love to see these employers get slapped with huge fines.

8/26/2005 9:11 AM  
Blogger Gretchen said...

I totally agree with your post. How about making them learn our LANGUAGE! Why in the name of all that's holy do we have to learn theirs? I'm not hiding in a truck or trunk to go into their country. If you want to live here, learn to adapt.

8/29/2005 6:14 AM  

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